DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

12000 - 1800 f.Kr.
Daler
Inlägg: 356
Blev medlem: 12 december 2017, 20:01

Re: DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

Inläggav Daler » 27 februari 2018, 17:54

Varför lyfter du fram saker som du egentligen inte alls tror på? Eller tror du på detta? Varför är DNA-molekyler i Peru via youtube-videos så intressant? Jag kan ju med lätthet hitta något som jag inte tror på på youtube och sedan fylla en tråd med kritiska inlägg. Förstår inte denna "approach".

kylarvende
Inlägg: 278
Blev medlem: 6 maj 2015, 11:48

Re: DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

Inläggav kylarvende » 27 februari 2018, 19:37

Daler!
Jag försöker bilda mig en uppfattning själv. Då inga peer-reviewed papers finns får man göra det bästa möjliga av situationen. Med hjälp av bl a dig och andras inlägg. Genom att dela med mig av den info jag hittar kan vi hjälpas åt att komma fram till ngt rimligt.

kylarvende
Inlägg: 278
Blev medlem: 6 maj 2015, 11:48

Re: DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

Inläggav kylarvende » 1 mars 2018, 17:45

Mer kritik från en person som uttalar sig negativt om den personen hade varit reviewer:

https://violentmetaphors.com/2016/09/20 ... as-skulls/


“Finally—and very importantly—it is standard for ancient DNA researchers to sequence their own DNA, and that of the archaeologists, biological anthropologists, and anyone else who may have handled the remains, in order to rule out that any results might be inadvertent contamination from them. Marzulli, Foerster, and others involved have never done that. This is important because the laboratory detected two different mitochondrial haplogroups in the samples Marzulli sent: T2b, and B4. It’s impossible to know whether either haplogroup was introduced by the persons involved in sampling. As a reviewer I wouldn’t accept either result as endogenous DNA: it would need to be redone under proper conditions, verified by at least two independent extractions, and include comparative sequences from the individuals sampling the DNA to ensure that the sequences recovered weren’t from them.”

kylarvende
Inlägg: 278
Blev medlem: 6 maj 2015, 11:48

Re: DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

Inläggav kylarvende » 7 juni 2018, 14:20

Hej!
Det finns nu mängder med inlägg av Brien Foerster på YouTube. Kolla själva och avgör. Foerster talar bl a om de dadelpalmer som växer i Paracas, men är mkt sparsammat förekommande såväl norr som söder om Paracas. Om man är intresserad av förslagvsis vilken hamn man avseglat från kan följande vara av intresse:

Enligt Wiki finns en rad sorters dadelpalmer. En del DNA har även studerats för dadlarna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_palm

kylarvende
Inlägg: 278
Blev medlem: 6 maj 2015, 11:48

Re: DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

Inläggav kylarvende » 8 juni 2018, 09:07

Hej!
Som vanligt bör man ge alternativ, som t ex spanskt ursprung, enl nedanst länk.


https://steemit.com/ancient/@sunsquall/ ... art-2-of-5

"-Talks about Date Palms in Paracas and how they are not utilized by the culture there in Peru."

DNA Results Of The Paracas Elongated Skulls Of Peru: Part ...

steemit.com

Brien Foerster of Hidden Inca Tours discusses the Black Sea connection to the elongated skulls. -Discusses the… by sunsquall

http://www.latinotravel.com.pe/icai.htm

"ICA PERU - LINEAS DE NAZCA - Latino Travel

www.latinotravel.com.pe

ICA »LOCATION The department of Ica is located in south Coast of Perú, south east of Lima. It limits to the north with Lima, to the south with Arequipa, to the east with Huancavelica and Ayacucho, and to the west with the Pacific Ocean.

"Cachiche This is an old town of sorcerers and curanderos (healers), which is part of the Ica folklore. It is surrounded by huarango trees and date palms, giving a mysterious atmosphere to the place.""

Andra möjligheter till ursprung:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... e_Americas

https://books.google.se/books?id=jd99Bw ... ru&f=false

Date Palm Genetic Resources and Utilization

books.google.se

This important 2-volume reference book is the first comprehensive resource reflecting the current global status and prospects of date palm cultivation by country. This volume covers Africa and the Americas. Countries included are: Egypt, Algeria, Sudan, Tunisia, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Niger, Cameroon, Djibouti, Chad, Mali Somalia, Ethiopia, Burkina Faso and Senegal, as well as the United States of America and the South American countries Chile and Peru. Topics discussed are: cultivation practices; genetic resources and breeding; conservation and germplasm banks; cultivar classification and identification based on morphological and molecular markers; micropropagation and progress toward scale-up production; and advances in dates processing and marketing. Chapters are supported by tables and color photographs. Appendixes summarize traits and distribution of major cultivars, commercial resources of offshoots and in vitro plants; and institutions and scientific societies concerned with date palm.

kylarvende
Inlägg: 278
Blev medlem: 6 maj 2015, 11:48

Re: DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

Inläggav kylarvende » 10 juni 2018, 19:03

Hej!
I mitt föregående inlägg finns en länk till förmodat spanskt ursrung hos dadlarna i Amerika. Man kan picka på den och ladda ner en pdf-fil gratis. Jag har klippt ut lite intressant info. Bl a en bit ur Tabell 1 och en figur på dadelpalmer i orten Cachiche som slingrar sig längs marken (prostate trunks). Tabell 1 ur nämnda dolument är lite svårtolkat. Men jag tror att när det inte står ngt om härkomst (provenance) så är den okänd. I paracas skulle den i så fall vara av okänd härkomst, medan i orten Pisco norr om Paracas vara av DMTA=Date fruits from Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria.

datepalstable.png
datepalstable.png (302.85 KiB) Visad 395 gånger



Förklaring till förkortningar:

BC Baja California, Cvs Main cultivars, El Elevation (m a.s.l.), CNr context and number of palms, HG home gardens, SP small

plantations, P plantations, TY Type of evidence, T texts, H Herbarium specimens, I images, E extant palm groves, Prov provenance,

DMTA date fruits from Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria. DSP date fruits from Spain, DSOSI date fruits from Sonora and Sinaloa,? with

doubts

datepalstable.png
datepalstable.png (302.85 KiB) Visad 395 gånger
Bilagor
prostatetrunks.png
prostatetrunks.png (685.99 KiB) Visad 395 gånger

kylarvende
Inlägg: 278
Blev medlem: 6 maj 2015, 11:48

Re: DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

Inläggav kylarvende » 19 juni 2018, 10:15

Om det stämmer med Europeiskt DNA i Paracas, så undrar man på vilka vägar det kan ha hamnat där. Kan handel vara inblandat? Koppar till framställning av brons, kanske?

Det skulle vara intressant att jämföra Cherokee-DNA med Paracas-DNA, se You-Tube länk nedan. Länken visar bl a ett "egyptiskt tempel" i Cherokee-regionen. När bronsåldern tog slut kanske några koppar-smältare valde att flytta söder ut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCsl52biXHA

kylarvende
Inlägg: 278
Blev medlem: 6 maj 2015, 11:48

Re: DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

Inläggav kylarvende » 17 juli 2018, 18:41

Vän av ordning undrar var all koppar kan ha brutits enligt föregående YouTube klipp. Om handel skall kunna ligga till grund för en eventuell senare migration till Paracas, så måste rimligen koppar ha brutits ngn stans. Ngt klokare blir man av nedanst länkar, men kanske inte helt på det klara med ursprunget till sådana mängder att handel över haven verkar rimlig. Men det är för mig svårt att avgöra. Isle Royal (lake Superior) behandlas i de nedersta länkarna, mest för att ge ett historiskt perspektiv (det verkar vara ett glapp på några tusen år).

https://peopleofonefire.com/image-ancie ... olina.html

"It appears to be a complex of stone furnaces, used to smelt iron, gold and copper ore into ingots that later became a Native American cemetery. However, the skeletons may be Caucasians. The archaeologists made no effort to determine the ethnicity of the skeletons. The metal artifacts were shipped back to Washington, DC and today are somewhere in the vast warehouses of the Smithsonian Institute."

"This site may date from the earliest times of the European Contact Era or be much older. There has been no efforts by contemporary archaeologists to re-examine the site to obtain more artifacts and radiocarbon dates. The site abounded in charcoal, so radiocarbon dating would be quite easy."


Image: Ancient iron and copper furnaces in Western North ...

peopleofonefire.com

http://www.telliquah.com/History2.htm


"The early inhabitants of the Basin were Cherokee Indian farmers who were hunters and produced some copper."

https://questexpeditions.com/the-histor ... oee-river/


"The Cherokee’s small mining operations were taken over by settlers that began to remove copper from the mountains in larger quantities, a process that was difficult until it was helped by the construction of railroads."


River History in Polk County Tn. - Quest Expeditions

questexpeditions.com

An interesting history of old copper mines, Cherokee Indians to a thriving whitewater industry. This southeast corner in Polk County Tennessee has hosted Olympic events, grown to be the home of one the top places in the United States for whitewater boating and outdoor adventure.


https://books.google.se/books?id=6aQ2AQ ... ee&f=false


Cherokee National Forest (N.F.), Upper Ocoee River Corridor Recreational Development, Polk County

books.google.se

/


Mining The Copper Basin - Tellico Plains

http://www.telliquah.com

Mining The Copper Basin In Southeast Tennessee _____ The Tellico Plains Mountain Press Photos By Jack Waters


http://www2.pitt.edu/~mabbott1/climate/ ... l15Hol.pdf


Copper mining on Isle Royale 6500– © The Author(s) 2014 ...

www2.pitt.edu

Pompeani et al. 255 Evidence for ancient copper mining in Michigan The earliest references to copper in the Great Lakes area come from Jacques Cartier’s second voyage to the region in AD 1535–1536.

https://eos.org/articles/miners-left-po ... -years-ago


Miners Left a Pollution Trail in the Great Lakes 6000 ...

eos.org

Miners Left a Pollution Trail in the Great Lakes 6000 Years Ago Scientists find evidence of ancient copper mining in polluted lake sediments from Isle Royale National Park.

kylarvende
Inlägg: 278
Blev medlem: 6 maj 2015, 11:48

Re: DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

Inläggav kylarvende » 21 juli 2018, 19:07

Hej!
Info om DNA i Peru. Intressant artikel:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 018-1427-4


​"Other haplotypes belonging to non-Q haplogroups (R, E, I and T) were not considered, as they represent Eurasian lineages and were probably identified due to post-Columbian admixture."

"Large differences observed among haplotypes of the Panakas suggest that intervention in male lines occurred from at least the sixteenth century until the twentieth century and perhaps before this time."

"With respect to the ancestral homeland of the royal Inkas, the genetic study of the Panakas families with putative Inka ancestry showed closer genetic affinity with Quechua- and Aymara-speaking populations from southern Peru and northern Bolivia, including areas of the previous Tiwanaku Empire, such as Lake Titicaca and the Altiplano. This was consistent with the hypothesis that the Inkas had ancestors from the Altiplano region and Pacarictampu (Cusco). However, well-recorded ancient DNA samples from the Inka and Tiwanaku cultures should be used to determine the direction and timing of the origin and dispersal of the imperial Inkas."

kylarvende
Inlägg: 278
Blev medlem: 6 maj 2015, 11:48

Re: DNA från Peru i Nya Zealand

Inläggav kylarvende » 27 juli 2018, 18:44

Lite info om Chachapoyas, Peru, tuberkulos ursprung:

http://www.shh.mpg.de/33388/pre-columbian_tuberculosis

Pre-Columbian Tuberculosis | Max Planck Institute for the ...

http://www.shh.mpg.de

"Tuberculosis is second only to HIV/AIDS in disease-related mortality in humans, killing an estimated 1-2 million people every year worldwide. Public health efforts are complicated by the emergence of multi-drug resistant strains, hence knowledge of its level of naturally-occurring variation through ..."

"To investigate the evolutionary history of TB in the Americas and beyond, we’re using array-based enrichments for M. tuberculosis and several of its close pathogenic cousins to evaluate the relationship of ancient forms of infection to those currently affecting humans. Most recently we’ve reconstructed M. tuberculosis genomes from three 1000 year old TB victims from Peru, which surprisingly revealed that the closest known relative to the ancient Peruvian disease is a strain of TB found today in seals and sea lions that rarely infects humans."

"In the most plausible scenario, seals acquired the disease from a host species in Africa and swam with it across the ocean where exploitation of seal products for food and ritual facilitated its transmission to humans on the Peruvian coast."

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